Well…

Don.

You’re buliding a wall.

You want it to stop immigration from South America. 

Have you considered how your country has treated the…neighbours during the years?

They are neighbours, aren’t they?

Ok, they had their problems from long ago because of, well, Columbus, Cortez…

I’m not an expert on South America, absolutely not, but there have been political events, haven’t there?

Economy?

Part of it, I think.

I’m more or less old enough to remember something about Chile. There was an election, and there was elected a guy your government didn’t approve of, and there was a coup, and then dictatorship.

Violence, too.

For quite a few years afterwards.

I’m sure there is a lot more to say about this, but I think a fair amount of people in Europe would say it is not altogether wrong to say this.

In your country too.

Just a little while ago, what was actually the thing in Bolivia, Venezuela, those parts?

There were other countries, earlier on, with…connections, to the States.

Colonies…

It’s probably not right to say that the countries in South America have been North American colonies, this word belongs to a different historical period, too. Meaning different times, different ways of dealing with things, also when the dealing was…a little shitty.

But there was always the Warsaw pact countries, and there was the Soviet Union, and there was South America and the USA, and one couldn’t help notice that there were some similarities in the relation between…the big guy, and the guys who were, you know, a little smaller.

You could say, probably, and very generally speaking, that the Communists had trouble with the truth, and you…with money, poverty. 

Well, there were problems with free speech in South America too…and economic problems in Soviet too.

But to keep a pretty fair amount of the people in poverty.

It looks as a problem over there, when you see things from here.

Historically too.

But I mean, why do you think these people come up to you?

Because of greed?

Or because of problems in their own countries, maybe?

Do you think, historically, that your country has a share in making those problems?

It looks like that to me.

I don’t know what you should do with this.

I’m just saying, this is the world, a small part of how I understand it.

This is not a small neighbourhood, either, where you think you know how people think and feel. It is a lot of people and a lot of different cultures.

It doesn’t have to be true in your neighbourhood either, that you know your neighbours. They may think very differently from what you think, from yourself. Make other priorities, have problems that you don’t know of.

Have you ever experienced…poverty?

Been really broke?

Nowhere to go for a loan?

Starvation? I wouldn’t think so.

All those refugees in the world…millions, actually.

Why do they run?

Here, some people talk about the guys who earn money on smuggling them to Europe or to you.

They are the crooks.

As they think, they are the reason things are like this, the reason people fly.

It is not exactly wise thinking.

People like that turn up in a situation.

One thing is general poverty.

I think you, and Europe, can’t totally escape the responsibility for that, either. 

Historically, of course. 

Time has passed.

But England, Spain, Portugal, and also France, Germany, Italy, even, had their go in both economic exploitation, and political…not only domination, the colonies were actual parts of the rulers countries, formally, laws and everything were made outside of India and Africa and the other places. 

The language, habits of administration…it was a huge cultural thing too. I doubt that everything has gone away, even after all the years that have passed.

Those countries, England etc, stayed for a while.

And even if the USA started as a colony, or colonies, you had your go, too, in a way.

Russia did a lot of shitty things, definitely.

And you did.

It’s not about guilt, for me, even if that is an issue too, probably, for those affected.

It’s just about realising what happened.

And what those things can have led to.

And you still haven’t grasped the climate thing, have you?

Carbon dioxide, I think, mostly it’s about that.

Burning fuel.

Pff pff…

It affects the weather, you know.

It does, it’s not a lie or something. This winter we had no winter, here in Oslo.

Some cold days, and yeah, it has been snowing, but so little, I have been walking in normal shoes practically the whole season. Thin jacket. Has been fine.

Oslo has a harder climate than New York, normally, so I’m told, I’ve never been to New York. But snow used to be in the streets from at least mid November until the beginning of March.

At least. Usually it’s a big job removing it from the streets everywhere in Norway, maybe a little less in the southwest, but still.

Well, you know that. of course. You have Alaska and the northern areas.

But even if the Golf stream makes the whole area here livable and nice, so we think, it is usually kind of cold.

But not this winter, really, not here. 

Norway is pretty long, in the north things are probably different.

But that carbon dioxide emission thing…it affects the weather.

I’m not kidding you.

And there are floods sometimes, now, even here, and it used to be not really common.  It doesn’ happen every year, maybe, but water has definitely become an issue. There has always been enough, but now they have to do things to cope with too much of it, much of the time.

And suddenly there were four months with no rain, in the spring and summer.

Also very unusual.

Difficult for the farmers, nice for us…

But we’re not a poor country.

In other parts of he world…this is much more dramatic.

The way the weather is affected by the level of carbon dioxide I cannot explain to you just like that. 

But a meteorologist probably can. There is a connection, even if it is not a simple one.

It’s not like, the temperature rises everywhere, all the time.

It’s more like, the weather becomes generally more extreme. And if you calculate the average temperature on the whole globe, it is actually rising.

And of course, with floods, more than usual, droughts, more than usual, bushfires, more than usual, like Australia…

All those problems we talked about, poverty…

Hey, suddenly it’s not possible, perhaps, for a family, somewhere, to really survive. 

Maybe they lived on the edge already, moneywise.

Many do.

And with political and military interventions also…you do that too, don’t you?

I mean…wars, the climate change, political suppression, I guess those are the most important reasons for the huge amount of refugees.

I still don’t have the kind of overview needed to say exactly what to do.

But at least, having some knowledge about the…situation.

Could be helpful, or what do you think?

Wrong word? Helpful?

It’s not an easy situation, absolutely not.

And I can’t tell you how difficult it is, I don’t have that kind of overview.

But there are, for instance, I don’t know, a little less than 10 000 kids, right now, in addition to grown ups, many more – in one big refugee camp in Greece, and many of them will maybe die because of that virus epidemic.

They are already in a fucking difficult position, pardon my French, but this is another part of the situation.

Moria.

That’s the name of this refugee camp.

Those kids need help right now, this minute, if possible.

They have been needing it for a long time, but now, this epidemic, in a place like that…

Of course, there are other camps other places in the world.

Lots.

So why are they there…

Those are just some points, when talking about refugees, and to say really, what’s the thing, maybe add some figures and see how it looks. How many refugees there…and there…and what are the «local» reasons, for all those people to be on the move, etc.

Are you a politician?

This is the situation.

Part of it.